Related Post

Spread the word

Digg this post

Bookmark to delicious

Stumble the post

DZone This Post

DotNetKick This Post

Add to your technorati favourite

Subscribes to this post

This website uses IntenseDebate comments, but they are not currently loaded because either your browser doesn't support JavaScript, or they didn't load fast enough.

83 users responded to this post

David said in September 9th, 2007 at 5:28 am    

Absolutely agree! Even the IT-informed users have trouble using the system (and no joy whatsoever in using a slow, complex, unflexible thing like Sharepoint), and for developers and administrators its hell. Not to spead of migrating form older versions – never seen such a terrible, time-destroying action as the migration from version 1 to 2, and then again from 2 to 3! If it were not for the continuity of things (although there are not many people left who really use it), we would love to throw it away.
David

Peder said in September 10th, 2007 at 3:00 am    

Are these experiences based om MOSS 2007 or older versions…

Rebecca said in September 10th, 2007 at 6:56 pm    

Can you tell me if you are referring to the 2003 version or the new MOSS version?

Rebecca said in September 10th, 2007 at 7:43 pm    

We are presently reviewing if we will go with Sharepoint MOSS or not. If not sharepoint then what are the options?

Miguel Carrasco said in September 12th, 2007 at 7:26 pm    

I would ask why are you going with SharePoint? There are some other excellent solutions out there that give you pieces of SharePoint, which will work better than the huge behemoth that SharePoint has become.

Patrick Kwinten said in September 18th, 2007 at 1:40 am    

I think a better / easer answer to the question how to track & organize could be IBM’s Lotus Quickr product in combination with Lotus Connector.

Company SNAPPS is providing new templates for this product….

Oded said in September 23rd, 2007 at 9:00 pm    

Anyone tried using Oracle ContentDB?

We are currently running a project to integrate documents with structured data. We are using C# and ContentDB API.

ContentDB supports metadata management, exposes documents stored in the database as a network drive, supports offline mode, some support for workflow.

Oded

Daniel Schiavone said in September 27th, 2007 at 2:46 pm    

Interesting take and some good points. Even Microsoft loyalists have a tough time with Sharepoint. I’ve led several document management projects; Domino Document Manager, Quickplace, Stellent and Sharepoint and I’ve continued to evaluate options for our clients including DB2 products. Prices are all over the place and I’m seeing a lot of expensive, half deployed product out there. In the end, documents end up on shared drives at best or most likely on a local drive. The time is ripe for good document management especially if you have to meet SOX requirements.

Sharepoint is hard to implement and does not have a full set of DM features. It’s positioned as both Portal and DM software but doesn’t excel at either.

Yes a Wiki can get you up and running quickly but it’s not a DM either. Besides uploading files to a web interface isn’t going to cut it with most users. Committing documents has to be as easy as File, Save As. There are a few intriguing OS options out there though.

At this point my recommendation would be Quickr, it has a low price point, integrates with Office, Outlook and Windows File Manager. You can be up and running within a few hours.

Brien Hayes said in September 28th, 2007 at 9:03 am    

I agree here with you, in some terms. Yes, it could be “complex to install, configure, and customize” and in fact that accurately reflects what I felt when I first started deploying Microsoft Office Sharepoint Portal Server 2003 in our company. Now we are using Microsoft Office Sharepoint Server 2007 and I am happy with what I have. Is that because we’ve upgraded to the MOSS 2007? Partly, yes. Upgrading added some freedom in administration and greatly enhanced our capabilities in keeping our company extranet sites secured. Sure, some innovations to this version can be seen as evolutionary. Indeed, why hasn’t the SQL server authentication been implemented before? The new possibility to expose and use sharepoint sites in environment that have no Active Directory service is fantastic, isn’t it? I think that, for complex products like SharePoint Server, it’s quite natural that some functionality gets implemented in a step-by-step manner. However, some functionality will probably never be implemented and that’s always going to be the case. Sometimes you have to look at third-party tools to find what you need. Consider the new security enhancements of WSS 3.0 and the item-level security feature. I dreamed of this forever, and voila! I got the possibility to set permissions for that level deep as the control lists for list items. But you can’t imagine how difficult it is to configure granular permissions for the whole set of sharepoint servers! I tried to do my best developing customized solutions to support me with managing item security and some of them, I must say were well made as I put all my effort into implementing them and then make them fit our environment. No need to hide it was interesting and I enjoyed learning some programming techniques but it’s all about using your time wisely and accomplishing your goals. The main goal is to make the site properly configured and secure and still functioning exactly in that way it should behave for the individual user. Believe me, it’s hard to provide someone wanting to access internal documents externally. But go implement this using the old technique that involves using file servers! In our case we needed to provide users that work in a team with an access to Excel / Word data and some other data specific to the local business. We used to store the data on our secured file server and it wasn’t that effective. The “Allow changes by more than one user at the same time” checkbox in Microsoft Excel does its job but the specialized document library is far more appropriate and reliable as shows the experience. That said, I would agree with the item 4 in your list of “three key reasons” – “It is one of the most unflexible applications I have ever used.” I guess, I know why you put this into an additional item adding it as the fourths for the already existing 3 key reasons. I had the same thoughts, I had been completely stuck with that and had no clue on what can I do more when somebody recommended me to look to the tool from Scriptlogic he had seen presented on the TechEd show this summer. The Security Explorer tool http://www.scriptlogic.com/products/security-explorer/ turned out to be a very handy thing as it allows controlling item level security for all the sites we run. The idea to implement controls with the standard GUI showed all the advances of the basic GUI over the web-based interface. What I often do myself, I first scan sites for inappropriate permissions assigned to some item or site. When I find an inconsistency between access levels that have been set for the user I did the scan for, I change the security settings on the fly by switching to item security for that user and change them the way I want. And what’s great I also can manage security for additional services that we run on our servers to implement some specific functionality. It looks like it isn’t all that bad with flexibility of managing SharePoint as long its model allows the third-party tools like Security Explorer to be used in addition to the basic central administration page. Just my 2 cents.

Jesse Smith said in October 10th, 2007 at 11:57 am    

As someone who lead a successful deployment of SPS 2003 and is now beginning to work with MOSS 2007, I found this article a little amusing.

Yes, Sharepoint is a huge product (really a set of products/technologies as you pointed out)

Yes, implementing processes and effecting organizational change is difficult. Encouraging adoption and changing user behavior is likely to be one of the most difficult and crucial part of any knowledge management project. But you think a basic WIKI is the answer? Anybody who needs a WIKI can set one up for little or no cost. Obviously MS has aimed to provide a great deal more functionality to those who need it.

A product this big is bound to be full of little things that don’t work the way one would expect, and features that one can’t believe were left out. Anyone who has worked with Sharepoint will agree with this and have their own wishlist. However, when I first saw the list of planned features for 2007 I was thrilled: item-level security, business data catalog, multilingual cm, workflow engine; exactly the things I wanted. MS continues to invest in the platform and I have great confidence in its future based on what I have seen first-hand.

I haven’t yet developed with the new workflow engine, but based on my past experience with Sharepoint I would guess the following:

It will have quirks and possibly bugs that at times make it very frustrating
It will be outclassed by dedicated mature workflow solutions on the market
Despite this it will meet my company’s need for basic workflow capability that is integrated with our current systems, can be configured with a lower level of training than most, and requires no additional hardware or software to implement (beyond MOSS of course)

As a side note, I have used Photoshop for years now, and I have seen it grow heavier and more complex as features are added. Most users probably use about 10% of what the program can do. According to your logic everyone including Adobe should now drop the product and use MS Paint for image editing.

If all you need to do is edit a couple pixels that might be OK. What you are failing to recognize is that the breadth (and necessary complexity) of Sharepoint is precisely art of the design. MS never said they could solve all of our business problems by offering this product. They have, however, given us a powerful and reasonably-priced platform to develop solutions, that, if we are able to navigate all of the design, development, and deployment challenges inherent in any software project, can be applied productively within almost any company that chooses to do so.

SkunkWorks said in October 14th, 2007 at 12:01 pm    

Porqué SharePoint Portal Server es Terrible

Otro Blog, otra controversia. Esta vez estamos hablando sobre otro blogger que se ha dedicado a crear

AC [MVP MOSS] said in October 15th, 2007 at 3:48 pm    

“think it’s a fantastic idea that has failed because of three key reasons”

Shows you haven’t done your research. Failed huh? Really… highest growth product in this history of one of the most (if not THE) successful software companies in the world, quickly approaching $1B in sales, 90%+ Fortune 500 market saturation… yeah… sounds like it’s failing to me.

No, this SharePoint MVP does not go hook-line-and-sinker on SharePoint because of the licensing costs. I don’t see a dime for licensing costs. I prefer it over usual ASP2 development because of so many things provided OOTB over what ASP2 sites all need: nav, search, plugin framework, etc. Is it the answer for everything? Hell no… but to say it’s failed or terrible? Myopic, poorly researched, and a bad “flame” post.

Have fun… more work for us :)
http://www.andrewconnell.com/blog/archive/2007/09/24/6116.aspx

Bill English said in October 15th, 2007 at 10:33 pm    

Ummmm……one way to tell if a product in any market is “good” or “bad” is by it’s sales. SharePoint sold $800M in FY07 and is selling at the same pace or higher in FY08.

The market votes with dollars, not blog posts. If SharePoint was a bad solution, people wouldn’t buy it. But they are buying it, so it must be a good solution. Problems and all, the market is buying this thing like nothing Microsoft has ever sold before.

Age said in October 16th, 2007 at 7:27 am    

Goes to show your not in the know of Sharepoint, MS technologies and ASP.NET 2.0

You can do anything you can do in ASP.NET 2.0 without the usual plumbing code. Also products like VS TFS, Project Server 2007, Project Portfolio Server all use this for a framework.

You dont know how many big companies use this product, for both there vertical LOB applications and portal solutions.

Its a shame that you dont know how to use this product because it is the future.

Yes it can be complex to install, but then again – tell me what product this big isn’t (have you ever installed SAP or WebSphere). Maybe your skill level doesn’t but it, I take it you did a 6 week course in IT ???

Bye.

Tony Bierman said in October 16th, 2007 at 9:30 am    

I don’t care if you don’t want to develop on SharePoint, and neither does your boss.

http://tonybierman.com/blog/2007/10/16/i-dont-care-if-you-dont-want-to-develop-on-sharepoint-and-neither-does-your-boss

Craig said in October 16th, 2007 at 9:49 am    

You said: “Will Microsoft ever get SharePoint right? It’s possible, if they start copying Wiki’s.”

If a Wiki is the solution you’re looking for, SharePoint is not for you. SharePoint is not, never has been, and never will be just a Wiki.

SharePoint does, however, provide a nice platform to manage intranet, extranet, and internet applications. Let’s see you do that with a Wiki.

My only complaint with it is the development experience. Microsoft has some work to do here, and they’re doing it. I just wish they’d work faster. =)

Parthi said in October 16th, 2007 at 11:06 am    

Interesting post and I agree with few points about complexity especially with non .NET tech team, but again my friend, you need to look from all perspectives.

You want a single solution, that should be simple and flexible and yet has to full fill all you needs on a ENTERPRISE level and also should be cheap… hmm let me think… NONE is the answer.

Even you know it’s not worth comparing this with a simple WIKI, yet you do it. All I care is there is no other product that gives so many features packed in one. If there is one, then do the comparison.

I agree there is a big learning curve for the IT folks, but what the heck, that’s what we are getting paid for. We need to understand any new system that would help the business well and provide a right solution depending on user needs. This is completely possible with SharePoint and people are doing it.

You provided a list of technologies you must master.
Now think about it. Can you develop an enterprise level application and not worry / know about Application server, Database server, security (LDAP) , Search server, development platform (Java, .net etc), system design etc ??

and XML is a technology you must master ?? Come on, where were you all these days?? You are mastering XML for SharePoint??

You don’t learn them just for SharePoint. They are already existing products / technologies / standards that people use everyday.

You can not be new to a technology and expect it to work with all the products YOU know.

Again I agree the complexity involved and difficulties, but you don’t call a product a total waste just for the reasons you mentioned…

Bob Mixon's Blog said in October 16th, 2007 at 12:42 pm    

Are You Ready For SharePoint?

Are You Ready For SharePoint?

Shane said in October 16th, 2007 at 12:45 pm    

Speaking from experience (5+ years working with SharePoint, MVP for SharePoint, 3x Author on SharePoint, and 10+ years working with web based technologies as a UI designer (as well as a huge advocate for web standards), I have the following comments:

First, I do agree with a lot of your comments. There is a lot of room for improvement. Especially in the area of code base and simplicity, However;

To say that the application is ‘not’ flexible is incorrect, it’s one of the most flexible applications in existence. It integrates with many line of business applications and can be molded around countless common ‘enterprise’ information management processes/scenarios. On top of that it’s a platform (built on ASP.NET 2.0) upon which you can further extend. I’m not really sure how much more flexible it can be.

You are also generalizing a product which touches many areas and skill sets, leading people to believe you must master the above technologies to use the product. This is also not true.

SharePoint is a web based “platform”. SharePoint touches so many aspects of a business (which is a blessing and a curse), it requires multiple roles to maintain + build upon it.

For example: A developer would need to be well versed in ASP.NET + SQL to create web parts, or custom controls. An administrator would need to be well versed in indexing + IIS, and so on.

The same could be said for building any web based solution could it not? I mean just because I build websites doesn’t mean I have to be an expert in internet protocols, the HTTP pipelining, or even all development technologies, it just means they are available tools/technologies which can be leveraged to build solutions.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and as stated I believe you make some very valid points. I to wish SharePoint produced a simpler UI/UX and more standards compliant code.

Contrary to popular belief, Microsoft does listen, it goes to great lengths to get feedback from customers, partners and technical communities. They do realize the product (like any) has short-comings, and they are working to fix them through Service Packs and Vnext releases.

So while there are obstacles to overcome, it would be rather short sighted to not point out the many advantages of SharePoint as well.

Interesting read in any event and personally I feel the more that is done to educate people on software experience the better as long as it’s done with some level of courtesy, and through the right channels.

Bob Mixon - Microsoft SharePoint (MOSS) MVP said in October 16th, 2007 at 12:48 pm    

Interesting article. I have written a blog post in response; please see:

http://bobmixon.com/BLOG/archive/2007/10/16/Are-You-Ready-For-SharePoint.aspx

Sahil Malik said in October 16th, 2007 at 1:03 pm    

Well, I have to ask, if your users found the document management processes tough to master, did you ask them what processes will work better for them? And was that process absolutely unimplementable in SP? I seriously doubt!

There is no technology that will solve the true dillema of a disorganized office, which is the disorganization itself. SP just lowers the technology barrier, and allows quick implementation *once* business users have made up their mind about what exactly they want.

And it is impossible to lower the implementation technology barrier, unless you don’t have the right people on the technical side.

It takes a good MOSS architect to both:

a) Get those requirements out of business users,
b) Know MOSS well enough to be able to actually implement them in a straightforward – no user manual needed – mechanism.

In other words, for a MOSS Project to succeed, you need a good MOSS architect, and a willing business user community.

Now is that really atypical of ?

To really judge the success of a product you have to see it’s adoption, and sorry to say but MOSS is a very successful product (outside of your hands of course!).

To be fair, it does have significant shortcomings. Your article unfortunately doesn’t even mention them. All I hear is

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!! IT’S TOO HARD!! :’(

Adam Toth said in October 16th, 2007 at 6:22 pm    

I guess Shane in his comment is talking about flexibility in a broader sense, with things like pluggable authentication and business data catalog.

I think the original poster is talking about flexibility in all the little features that seem to be duct-taped together with little thought to extensibility. A perfect example of which is trying to get spell check to work for blog postings (http://www.sharepointblogs.com/toth/archive/2007/10/01/No-spell-check-for-wss-blog-postings.aspx).

The devil is in the details, and it’s these little things that you can’t easily change that can piss a person off.

That said, I agree that instead of just whining, list the actual faults. The SharePoint team did one hell of a good job listening to our complaints about version 2. Many of the headaches from that version are just gone now.

Mark said in October 16th, 2007 at 8:29 pm    

I think that you’re comparing apples to oranges here and from the terminology that you’ve been using you’re comparing Enterprise to Web 2.0.

MOSS isn’t focussed solely on wikis so it’s capabilities in this area are undeniably trounced by Mediawiki, Confluence, etc. The comparison with Basecamp seems a little odd as well. Project Server is probably a better comparison. MediaWiki and Basecamp are simpler because they’re more focussed on delivering specific functionality. I’m not a huge fan of MOSS but I appreciate that it provides just enough functionality for many users to accomplish many objectives. I personally think that MOSS provides feature breadth rather than feature depth (IMHO WCM, RM & DM could all be improved in MOSS).

I don’t think that SharePoint is overly complex when compared to other enterprise apps (e.g. Documentum, Interwoven, etc). Having said that I think that the configuration for SharePoint could be improved (the admin screens are a mess IMO).

I would suggest revising some of your statements:

“SharePoint will help bring happiness to your organization by organizing all your documents..”

You could say the same for all software so solely targetting SharePoint is a little unfair. At the end of the day it’s all about the business processes. Software is no silver bullet.

“Have you ever heard the “KISS” theory? Keep it simple stupid.”

Name one ECM that is simple.

“Fix your search, it must be better than Google’s search, and it is not even close.”

You’re talking about full text indexing here. What about metadata based searching?

“Get rid of your hierarchy and start teaching people to use tagging.”

Don’t get carried away with Web 2.0 hype. Tagging is not applicable to all content related applications. What if you wanted to control the metadata that was being assigned to content (e.g company vocabulary, minimising typos, etc)?

“Create Clean XHTML standard code; fix your 4MB+ CSS files!”.

Ideally yes but users/stakeholders will not care about this. It’s often not business critical.

“Do you know what happens when you turn on workflow features like check in and out, approval paths”.

You’re generalising here. Wikis are great but not for all forms of content management. What if you’re managing company processes and policies? You may need explicit authorisation from the relevant technical authority. What about support for review and retention policies? How about managing non-textual information – e.g. Visio files, engineering drawings, etc?

“what are the chances that the partner has any clue of how to manage documents in a large organization?”.

I would expect that the partner has experience of business analysis, information architecture and the relevant technologies.

“Make it ‘Mashable’”.

There are integration opportunities via W3C web services and RSS rather than thin client mashability. For enterprise purposes this is probably adequate. What MOSS doesn’t feature are RESTful web services so if you’re looking to script web pages to return JSON payloads for pretty URLs then look to Alfresco instead (which can be used as the data store for Mediawiki incidentally).

In summary, you’re not judging SharePoint as an ECM product which is probably the best description for it. You’re judging it as an Web 2.0 app.

Regards

Mark

Brad (livePoint) said in October 16th, 2007 at 8:30 pm    

It appears that you have had some problems working with SharePoint. Like most enterprise-class applications you can’t expect to deploy it and have it work for all scenarios if you’re just clicking “Next”.

I would suggest that some:
a) Planning
b) Training (For yourself and the users)
c) User Requirements
d) Configuration-based customisations

would have resulted in a much better experience for everyone involved. Now for some facts (to provide some balance to your blog entry):

a) There have been more than 86,000,000 licences sold for SharePoint. Not exactly a small User Base. And it’s growing.
b) I would consider myself an expert in SharePoint and IIS. I’m not bad at SQL either (but I don’t know how to build SQL Functions, for example) and I’ve worked with AD as a Domain Admin. These skills allow me to architect solutions for Enterprise-class organisations (eg >10,000 users) with excellent user adoption. I don’t know ISA or .NET
c) Master pages, Software Development and XML are all components of .NET.
Database Design & Development – Don’t mess with the database. Let MOSS handle it & use the API.
Indexing & Search Engine Configuration – They’re the Same thing.
ISA server – Only relevant if you’re publishing a public site, and the business should have an expert in whatever firewall / proxy technology they use. If you recommended it, then you must have the expertise in-house. If you don’t, partner with someone who does.
File Stores… Huh? What’s to learn? How to save a file? Apply Security? Share a folder?
This leaves:
SharePoint (And configuration of same, including Search)
SQL Server
Internet Information Server
Active Directory
and
.NET 2.0 if you want to build custom solutions.
d) It looks like this blog was written after an unsuccesful implementation of MOSS – Was it written for the community’s benefit or to “save face” in front of the client who was left with a messy implementation?

Bob Mixon’s responses are worth reading. You refer to SharePoint Portal Server – I assume you mean 2003, and yes it lacked key functionality most of which has been resolved in 2007. Still a way to go, but OOTB it gives you an 80-90% development head-start on building from scratch.

Sharepointer said in October 17th, 2007 at 4:01 am    

Why all this fuss about a blog post bashing an old version of Sharepoint (SPS)? Clearly, this guy just wants a Wiki – so just ignore ;-)

Andy said in October 17th, 2007 at 5:37 am    

Some valid points, but I agree with Mark – you’re making a comparison of two very different things, and criticising SharePoint for problems that exist for any enterprise wide system.

SharePoint 2007 isn’t some neat, tidy, focussed little web 2.0 app. It’s not lightweight – but nor was it meant to be. It is an enterprise grade single application designed to provide a lot of different aspects of functionality. It doesn’t do them as well as specialist apps, but it can save you buying multiple applications, and having multiple things to look after – just like a Swiss army knife (my favourite metaphor for SharePoint).

My full reply is here: http://www.novolocus.com/display.php?id=466

Mirrored Blogs said in October 17th, 2007 at 12:10 pm    

Flame and Ye Shall Be Flamed In Return

Body: I was all geared up to author a scathing respone to this ridiculous post but I was struggling with

Wesley said in October 22nd, 2007 at 3:04 am    

If you think you can do it better. Make a portal yourself and sell it.
It’s always easy to breakdown a product from someone else. Have you ever developed in MOSS? Have you ever developed something in .NET or something else?
Nobody is stopping from moving to Java and use the IBM document management tool.

Hardy said in October 22nd, 2007 at 6:48 am    

A very funny article – and I’m still laughing about it. I would say that I’m a MOSS specialist and I have implemented several solutions for smaller (20 employees) and bigger (>10.000 employees) companies. All implementations had the same result – people (users and administrators) are absolutly happy about there new system. They could increase there productivity between 15-20% (measured before and after implementation). The IT could decrease the costs because they had only one system for Intranet, Extranet and Internet. The interfaces to other systems could be handled much easier. Special the perfect integration into the office environment and the idea of mysites did help the people to find there information much faster.

The success of Microsoft with the product (> 800 Mio USD within 8 month) shows that the market likes the product.

I implement all SharePoint projects by using Scrum – so the implementation of the solution for the customer is agile (I have never seen a product that is agile – since agile is a methodic and not a product).

You are talking about MOSS is not flexible – I’m a programmer since more then 20 years and I have never seen a more flexible product before. You can use MOSS as a development framework and implement really nice solutions based on this framework. There are a lot of features available that you don’t need to programm yourself. It helps you to reduce the programming time for common things like document libraries, user security and many other things).

Is MOSS complex – yes here you are right – it’s definitly to complex for you – otherwise you would not write such things about MOSS. If you understand the big benefits of this solution you will see that even you can reduce your programming times.

Keep happy with your Wiki (if you think that bigger companies just needs a Wiki to solve all their problems you should stop dreaming) and let the SharePoint specialists make the MOSS implementations.

SharePoint, SharePoint and stuff said in October 22nd, 2007 at 7:51 am    

SharePoint Kaffeetasse 25

HotFix Security Hotfix MS07-059 Artikel zum Lesen Why SharePoint Server is Terrible Dazu der Kommentar

Philipp Schumann said in October 22nd, 2007 at 8:53 am    

Have to agree with Hardy. Far too broad and simple-minded criticism, not well backed up.

“Keep it simple.”

Well it’s not simple as in “beautifully elegant”, but at least simple as in comprehensible. Couple of glitches, gotchas and hick-ups every now and then, but never deal breakers and always solvable/workaround-able. Certainly not *really* difficult to use.

“Technologies You Must Master”

Yes. This is not software for mom. I agree. It isn’t personal software either. It is intended for teams—the bigger the team, the more useful. For a small 3-4 people, I’d always go for Backpack etc, MOSS would be overkill. But for enterprises, the skills and infrastructure is assumed to be available already. SQL Server, IIS etc. — if this is a big deal for you then MOSS is “steep”. Otherwise setup is basically kicking off the wizard and waiting an hour, then working through a small and comprehensible list of hints in Central Administration. So what?

“Your software needs to be easy to install.”

As I just said, for this kind of software, it is.

“Developers must be able to easily customize and extend your application.”

Absolutely doable. Only MOSS doesn’t magically upgrade your skills. They don’t claim it does, though.

“Your application should not rely on certain infrastructure being present, if possible, or at least, very minimal.”

You would have a 1000% more pains if SQL Server, IIS, ASP.NET etc would have been rebuild from scratch right into the MOSS platform. Ouch!

“If your application generates HTML, it better be proper XHTML and not Microsoft HTML.”

Yes, it would be nice, but for the kind of teams that use MOSS, this will be “essential” only a few years from now. Today, it’s just nice to have. So you can move that into the next release cycle, and I’m confident that’s exactly what MS has done.

“Ensure your application has a very low learning curve.”

All technology is a series of trade-offs. The learning curve is absolutely acceptable, given also the broad availability of ASP.NET, .NET and SQL skills on the market. That’s entirely sufficient to start on a MOSS project, allowing for a week or two of warming up to the system.

“If you have a lot of money, you can sell even the worst application.”

If that’s what you believe, I have nothing to tell you… ;)

Sean said in October 23rd, 2007 at 10:51 am    

Wow. I mean what else is there to say. Most poorly written and researched blog post. Ever. I responded to this on my blog if you care.

Furqan Baqai said in October 28th, 2007 at 2:02 am    

Interesting article. I think before i go ahead and comment on it, i should define my experience on working with the same type of solutions offered by IBM.

We have been developing enterprise level portals and document management solution over IBM products like DB2 CM, IBM Websphere Application Servers, IBM Websphere Portal Server and IBM Lotus Notes Workplace Content Management Server. We have recently started researching on Microsoft base Portal product becasue of share market demand and price tag.

While working on all these IBM products we learned how difficult it is to manage, administer and maintain applications on this platform. To be honest with you let me give a glimpse of things.

In-order to use one of the most simple options on IBM platform (like Syndication and Search Collections) we are required to download and run 7 Fixes and 2 Fix Packs on IBM platform :@. Keeping this in mind, if we assume that the product so costly runs after we install it then we are completely wrong. We are working on IBMLWWCM like for a year and we have developed a myth within the organization: “If there’s a feature which is not running, there must be a fix of it”.

Apart from this, maintaining IBM products mentioned in the list above is a tedious job as well. A beginner resource is require to go through 100 of pages of Red Books, TechCenter articles and forums to get the idea how to get some basic feature (like search collection) running.

Keeping all this things in mind, if you go through the feature set IBM technologies is offering, it is great. Yes it’s tedious and frustrating for Techies, but hey, thats what we are paid for.

Coming back to your article, i’ll totaly disagree with your opinion. Comparing the technology stack MOSS is providing with that of IBM we have observed on our test environment that it is great. MOSS is one of the most feature rich platform which is relatively easier to use and manage.

As far as the issues you have raised regarding business process re-alignment, it is not the case with MOSS which is creating the issue, it is a plague which have effected the industry for quite a while. It requires lot of skills and brain to change an organizational culture. That is why consultants are highly paid.

Summarizing my comments, i think your article is not properly researched and requires more in-depth knowledge of other solutions as well to get the idea how things are working.

P.S: Please note that i forgot to mention FileNet solution as well which provides all in one suite, i.e document management, portal, collaboration and Web Content Management. Referring from techies who have been working on this technology, it is extremely difficult to get this solution up and running.

NOTE: My comments are based on my company’s experience.

Mirrored Blogs said in October 29th, 2007 at 4:20 pm    

Porqué SharePoint Portal Server es Terrible

Otro Blog, otra controversia. Esta vez estamos hablando sobre otro blogger que se ha dedicado a crear

Patrick said in November 14th, 2007 at 4:00 am    

Absolutely agree.
We tried using Sharepoint (+ Office) to develop an eletronic patient record document management application.

It nearly killed me and we eventually ditched the whole thing. Reasons:

Very complext to administer and develop
Sharepoint + Infopath = total nightmare in terms of performance + all kinds of development dead-ends (can’t do this, can’t do that, not really a .net app)
Issue after issue after issue: You could just feel the glue and joins as they tried to glue all this together. We regularly got DDE errors for heaven’s sake (what on earth are they doing here. This is like some evolutionary experiment gone wrong and we are back in the cretacous period!)

Hector said in November 16th, 2007 at 12:49 pm    

Hoy many time have used Moss 2007?
You realy know Moss 2007?
I think you don’t have any idea about the new version of Sharepoint.
Sorry.
If you need info about : http://hinsua.blogspot.com

Paul Galvin's Blog said in November 16th, 2007 at 7:19 pm    

You Can’t Beat SharePoint’s Reach

During the last two days, I have participated in two meetings during which we presented the results of

Developer said in December 29th, 2007 at 6:58 am    

I disagree with you.

Vladimir Kelman said in January 4th, 2008 at 2:03 pm    

Totally agree. It’s so monolithic, overcomplicated and inflexible, that we gave up.
Here’s in-details explanation of why our company decided to give up and to develop our future version of Intranet in plain good ASP.NET 3.5:
http://imukai.spaces.live.com/blog
http://pro-thoughts.blogspot.com/2008/01/why-i-hate-ms-share

Klaus said in January 8th, 2008 at 5:53 am    

A Boeing 747 is also a great product, right? For most users it’s useful and easy to use (just get in, sit down, fasten your seatbelt and off you go!), but nobody complains that it takes years of training to learn how to fly such a thing!

yinka said in January 20th, 2008 at 1:04 am    

If sharepoint is difficult to deploy then i wonder what you will think of lotus domino/websphere. what is required to deploy such applications is training.
http://www.spiralteck.com

Matthew Carriere said in February 4th, 2008 at 7:09 pm    

This article is so completely dead on I almost fell out of my chair. I used to work for a Microsoft ‘partner’ performing SharePoint installs using 2003 and then on MOSS. Everything you say is correct… AND the development is a complete disaster. Trying to extend or develop for SharePoint is so complex and error prone that you are better off writing a wiki yourself if you are that determined to have a custom solution. In order to even debug your development you have to run SharePoint and Visual Studio on Windows Server!!!! That’s your dev environment… its absolutely ridiculous. Microsoft sells this as if it can take the place of a traditional intranet and there is just NO WAY. For those who are asking, then what? Take a look at an open source wiki… don’t be afraid it won’t hurt, and it can be customized easily. But, if you had the deep pockets to go into SharePoint hell in the first place, then build it yourself. I have seen companies sink hundreds of thousands of dollars into this product… give me that… I will get a couple developers on board and we will build you exactly what you want… and it will actually work and be easily extended.

Derik Larson said in February 13th, 2008 at 2:44 am    

I totally agree Matt, I think some of the Microsoft fanboys missed the point of the article. Microsoft sells this as a simple to implement portal, when in reality, its a fairly complex infrastructure for building amazing applications. Finaly someone hit the nail on the head. This blog is fairly Microsoft biased, so its funny to see the Microsofters freak out at the sign of something negative. At least Miguel has proven not to be on the Microsoft payroll after all.

Cameron Frasnelly said in March 13th, 2008 at 12:39 am    

I agree with the article. Far too much effort to install, configure, extend, and maintain – UNLESS you are a very large company with the resources to devote to it. I’m betting greater than 95% of SP’s sales came from HUGE companies. Its not for the SMB market.

Terrance Normindy said in April 1st, 2008 at 11:32 pm    

The SharePoint architecture is littered with O(n^n) operations. It will never scale. Microsoft is aware of this and trying to improve it, but they can only do so up to a point.

dsf said in April 23rd, 2008 at 4:06 pm    

Terrance Normindy, plz stop trying to sound smart with your talk of O(n^n) operations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_O_notation

wtf does this have to do with sharepoint?

Abdulkareem TL said in April 26th, 2008 at 12:51 pm    

It’s expensive and difficult to work with. If you got the money to deploy it,i suggest you get one developed instead.
http://www.platgroupng.com

Matthew Rutledge said in May 10th, 2008 at 6:47 am    

This is a nice synopsis, thanks. Most of what’s mentioned I have anticipated or encountered myself in my office – even with all of the complex layers and bugs, not to mention the unacceptable slowness, it is still something that my company’s corporate structure purchased and therefore we must live with – every employee has a license, and there are a few thousand employees nationally (and we’re a subsidiary of a much larger company about 6 times larger.) I am not an IT specialist and was not involved in the decision-making process, but I do know how much it cost us (due to inadequate security in SharePoint, ironically)-the amount of time and money my employer invested contains enough wasted money and red tape to make the French or the IRS blush.

However, it took an entire year for them to fire the third party contractor who was supposed to ‘implement’ the site – never mind that we’re a profitable, capable company that would not be perceived by its consumer base as that internally dysfunctional. Almost a year after that, they have decided to implement a highly restrictive access regime – something that would be fine if it were more than an ugly website with no access to even correct a misspelling or switch a data view to a more intuitive format. In effect, we’re using about 5 of the 6 0′s (dollarwise) to host a website that could be created for free.

So honestly my problem is more with our processes internally than SharePoint itself. The access policies as enacted by IT contains such a granular, hierarchical arrangement, that most people gave up on it a long time ago. We’re 2 years on and have received nowhere near the product we paid for – of course, this will be a corporate level discussion and is entirely our company’s own fault. But my question to whoever’s reading is, do you work in an environment where SharePoint is seen as a cryptic monolithic product that gets used to show a few web pages and store a few outdated documents? If so, what do you do instead?

That’s where I’m at right now – the product and the internal process is too much to bear, so we’re very likely to buy a separate turnkey solution like Clearspace very, very quickly and just do our own regional affair. Does anyone know of an alternative platform that is affordable, flexible, not too feature laden but at the very least able to be modified with styles and contain reasonable revisioning and access rights? And of course, it would have to be compatible with SP for that fateful day in 2012 that they decide we have to use it. We’re desperate to collaborate, and we want to do the right thing – one more decable with a CMS product and our employees will simply start going back to the days of writing requests on paper. Thanks for listening

Sam said in May 25th, 2008 at 6:28 am    

Dear,

I will discuss content and layout development.

The problem is that 70% of the firms/companies who use sharepoint wants to enable 120% of the features right away and with 0 customization in terms of layout/branding and content development. This leaves your portal shallow and empty with too much to mantain. Not to talk about access levels, and empty sites…Sharepoint is a huge and flexible intranet platform thats gives you everything and let you customize everything – and i mean everything!

We are running a sharepoint platform with very good amount of customization, very creative navigation, proper information channeling and customized access levels. Believe me its taking knowledge management and process improvement to new heights.

You just have to know you business needs and deliver based on this.

Regards,
Sam

web said in May 30th, 2008 at 2:35 am    

Companies request for sharepoint deployment because it is popular but not necessarily the best solution.

Patrick said in June 30th, 2008 at 12:04 am    

Why SharePoint Portal Server is Terrible = A BIG LIE.
Get you hands dirty and start doing some work.
This article didn’t make any sense. What time do you have to build sharepoint using C#, ASP.NET

Ask yourself is the business going to wait for this…Or by time you are ready their plans could have changed:)
You are right it could be trdious to get somethings done.
But common ….. Wise up. Its just another product

cathy said in October 23rd, 2008 at 9:13 am    

SharePoint 2007 is truly amazing. I have been working with this product from the time it was in beta. It is a huge improvement from the previous version. Our clients are so happy with the collaborative aspects of MOSS

Hax Or said in October 30th, 2008 at 12:26 pm    

The corporations that I create portals for are usually interested in SharePoint, aka MOSS or Team Services v.3 (the free one).

However, they don’t want to “buy” MOSS if it does not come pre-configured for their business.

Since I’m working in the healthcare industry, we have corporate/federal regulations on top of the Microsoft Recommend Application Specifications. Also, there is always an existing structure already in place.

Instead of messing around with SharePoint or MOSS, if a customer/client/corporation requires a PORTAL ONLY, SharePoint is overkill.

A portal may simply require that the existing database is used, and new User Profiles created. It takes me less time/less money to deploy the components of .NET that I need for a portal, than to finagle SharePoint to do what I want.

That being said, if they want all the features of SharePoint, buy it! There’s no way I could custom develop the entire thing to make it cost-effective…

jcintra said in November 13th, 2008 at 1:00 pm    

After reading many of the comments and the article, I think that people don’t know how to work with Sharepoint. Maybe it’s a marketing problem, saying this it’s the tool to make everything we need. But I think people don’t understad what Sharepoint can give OOTB and don’t want to change the way of building things and get a hard time to adapt to sharepoint.
The first time I worked in sharepoint was hard, I didn’t know very well the platform, and developed by the webpart way. It was hard.
Then I had the time to read about and implement some dummy sites.
The second project was much more smoother. The third was like playing Lego.
Nowdays it’s my platform of election. I don’t use Sharepoint for everything, but many times I give a try before opting for another technology.
I say, learn the platform, learn the tricks and have fun with it.

Michael said in November 21st, 2008 at 12:27 pm    

I started working with MOSS 2007 3 months ago. Yesterday I had a chat to our head of department, and asked him for a transfer to another project, pretty much anything that did not involve MOSS. I have been a developer for the last 10 years, I wrote my first piece of code in junior school, in all my years of experience I have never quite found a technology as soul destroying as MOSS.

If it came down to it, I would rather stop developing all together than have to work with MOSS. I have 2 weeks left using this outrageous technology, You can be sure my stomach churns each time I even hear the word SharePoint or MOSS.

Its an absolute disgraceful technology.

Ed said in January 28th, 2009 at 9:27 am    

Just going through an implementation of SharePoint (MOSS 2007) and I cannot believe how immature it is as a product.

Some great gotchas I have come across so far:

“Overwrite existing file” is checked by default – watch your help desk calls go through the roof and your backup tapes do constant restores.

Delete a site and it does not go into the the recycle bin like evrything else. Buy a third party product to intercept this I am told.

Rename a user in Active Directly and the users display name does not change in SharePoint. Write some custom code of my own to fix this I am told.

Accessability standards – don’t even go there. There are companies out there making buckets money of just trying to make SharePoint complaint to standards. I could do the changes myself I am told, anythings possible, thanks.

You can add files using the the explorer view and no meta data is collected, can I turn this off, oh no!

It goes on. Why do people defend such a product?

senthilvel said in February 5th, 2009 at 12:28 am    

I started working with MOSS 2007 3 months ago. Yesterday I had a chat to our head of department, and asked him for a transfer to another project, pretty much anything that did not involve MOSS. I have been a developer for the last 10 years, I wrote my first piece of code in junior school, in all my years of experience I have never quite found a technology as soul destroying as MOSS.

If it came down to it, I would rather stop developing all together than have to work with MOSS. I have 2 weeks left using this outrageous technology, You can be sure my stomach churns each time I even hear the word SharePoint or MOSS.

Its an absolute disgraceful technology.

senthilvel

Pavel said in February 18th, 2009 at 5:25 pm    

After reading through your article and the comments, I think I’m going to pass on sharepoint… You’re ambivalent on the technology, but I honestly can’t believe the vituperative nature of its champions here. The thought of turning to one of these “MVP”s for help isn’t a pleasant one.

michael soriano said in June 16th, 2009 at 7:28 pm    

Wow – I Thought I was the only one who felt this way. I have been developing websites for many years. My work uses Sharepoint – and I feel like I'm a beginner again. No room for customization – the look or functionality. You have to master the "sharepoint object model" or hack the pages completely. And if you look at the source code of the .aspx pages – it is one of the dirtiest mark up I've ever seen. Styles, behavior and content are all mixed into the same document. Very very dirty.

Henry said in July 12th, 2009 at 7:56 am    

I feel this way too. I work for a large company – trying to do the basics, and essentially it's become a career to get Microsoft products to work. I just wanted to create a dashboard and took me days to figure out how to do this on SharePoint. Waste of time.

Gunnar Langeland said in August 27th, 2009 at 7:52 am    

Totally agree.. If I had spent the same amount of time, working with VS 2008, a componentpack like DevExpress or TeleRik, SQL 2008 and IIS, I am confident I would have managed to make a better, more scalable, relational application!!!

Microsoft; You have made a ton of great applications, SharePoint is not one of them and the only application that is worse to work with is SAP!

Loved Foxpro Hate MS said in September 23rd, 2009 at 3:50 pm    

I agree. They built it on top of MS SQL but it lacks any of the capabilities inherent in MS SQL. And, how about that Lookup field. Can only look up, not look down.
It may be built for document repositories, but the marriage to Word is about as useless
as it comes. Sure you can use word, you just can't use it intelligently with word unless
you use access to perform a merge.
MS thinks the business world is simplistic in nature and building simple unrelated
list makes for a good system.

They never have gotten access to work, and now they're applying the same thinking
to the web.

web said in November 29th, 2009 at 10:11 am    

I always thought i was the only one that felt his way

uggs outlet said in January 15th, 2010 at 2:24 am    

They never have gotten access to work, and now they're applying the same thinking
to the web.

brand clothing said in January 20th, 2010 at 5:43 am    

thank you !!

ed hardy said in January 20th, 2010 at 5:44 am    

welcome to my website!!

ckerel said in March 19th, 2010 at 6:48 am    

also note that Sharepoint is very difficult to uninstall

Chaussures Sports said in March 29th, 2010 at 2:53 am    

I agree. They built it on top of MS SQL but it lacks any of the capabilities inherent in MS SQL. And, how about that Lookup field. Can only look up, not look down.
It may be built for document repositories, but the marriage to Word is about as useless

itransition said in April 16th, 2010 at 12:49 pm    

is Sharepoint 2010 so terrible as in this 2007 year article described?

Chris said in April 23rd, 2010 at 12:39 pm    

Learn how to use a fucking apostrophe, dipshit.

It is being sold as a system to add process’s to organizations that don’t have them.
(processes is the plural of "process". Stupid fuck)

It’s rendered HTML is brutal, along with the CSS files.
(Its is possessive and doesn't require an apostrophe. fuck stick)

Chris said in April 23rd, 2010 at 12:40 pm    

Wiki's Rock

THERE'S NO APOSTROPHE IN PLURALS!!!!! YOU ARE A FUCKING MORON!

horst said in April 30th, 2010 at 12:23 am    

also its versioning system os completely WHACK!
if you have ever used a realversion control system then SP will make you wanting to scream endlessly

SorryForTheRant said in May 11th, 2010 at 5:13 pm    

I have been developing custom application using MS technologies the last 10 years. Overall I think MS has create very nice tools and language to do my work efficiently, Visual Studio has been a very nice and easy to use development tool, too wizard focused sometimes but going into the rigth direction (less "hidden" code in general). SQLServer is a easy to develop database, with its BI addins (reporting services, analysis services) improving on each version… .Net Framework is a very nice and complete framework to built applications, etc..

SorryForTheRant said in May 11th, 2010 at 5:13 pm    

All nice and wonderful but… but… but… but… why why why MS decided to follow the sharepoint path??? I feel sick just thinking in the posibility that I should need to install, configure and customize this monster called Sharepoint in any profesional project.
I know money is important and that's a business… I remember when I started working profesionally, that SAP was starting to grow heavily. Looking at SAP product, I got the same feeling than today with Sharepoint. From a business perspective maybe it is the next big thing but for sure from a pure technical point of view, Sharepoint is the worst software product I have never see.

SorryForTheRant said in May 11th, 2010 at 5:14 pm    

It is far more easy too learn J2EE, Ruby On Rails, C++ multi-inheritance or any other than than the sharepoint architecture and permissions and mysiotes, and sites subsites, lists, wikis and excekls, and kpis all together … sorry for the rant. Just insatalling SS with the default values it creates 5 or 6 (don't rememeber exactly) databases in SQLServer (a , 3 or more windows services, I don't know what it really does with IIS, and there is somekind of Host header resolution that required wins name resolution for the server to work properly… For sure it is my fault because I just spent one week trying to figure out which posibilities a software like MOSS 2007 provides. For sure I should invest before two years fully studying the product, paying MS teachers to explain me how it works, and paying some certification exams and all. After that huge investment for sure I would state that Sharepoint is the next bug thing. That's a business!

Lols said in May 19th, 2010 at 1:52 pm    

Man, you rock! Agree on everything you've written here.

ChrisYouTit said in June 4th, 2010 at 2:55 pm    

You're obviously just a tit with nothing better to do.

Louis vuitton said in June 5th, 2010 at 3:14 am    

I’m very interested in your article,

Coach bags said in July 16th, 2010 at 1:29 am    

Below I outline my experience, and more than anything, my constructive feedback to Microsoft. Hopefully the Live Search team is reading! I break my reasoning up into three categories as to why Google is still the best Search out there

Timblander Shoes said in July 16th, 2010 at 1:56 am    

A small, fast and powerful freeware text editor, developed mainly to serve as secondary tool for software developers. This tool will easily replace notepad

James said in July 29th, 2010 at 10:45 am    

Reading over the features for SharePoint 2010 I see a note about full XHTML compliance, great I think, they're acknowledging standards.

WRONG. The mark up generated by SharePoint is appalling, you could not write such terribly formatted and plain wrong mark up if you were given the challenge. Never mind I thought, I'll use XSLT to render my lists, giving me control of the markup.

WRONG. SharePoint will wrap your 2 line XSLT with hundreds of lines of divs, empty spans and script tags, making it useless for the intended purpose of generating scrollable items.

Maybe I just don't understand enough about it to do it properly, but there is an assumed amount of knowledge amongst the MS community, which is valuable amongst MS developers because they can provide lengthy technical posts to a simple problem but you couldn't share out at top dollar if you embraced community development.

/Rant

Leave Your Comments Below